Kalen Jordan – Mage Open Source Community Alliance Debate

This episode was hosted by Kalen Jordan. The interview happened on the behest of Kalen to talk more about the Mage Open Source Community Alliance and the recent letter published.

The “Cone of Silence”

Transcript

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kalen: See here’s the great thing about the car in the garage. is that?

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kalen: Um, you get what I got Wifi. I got great Wi fi. So that’s not an issue. I’ve got good

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kalen: connectivity. Great sound proroofing

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kalen: right, because when you have kids,

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brent_peterson: oh yeah. that’s that’s the key.

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kalen: that’s the key. It’s

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kalen: all about soundproofing, so cars are probably, Uh. Your car is your probably single

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kalen: most sound proooofd object that you own, believe it or not, So

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brent_peterson: except for the Um. The

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brent_peterson: Cone of silence from the original gets smart, and now you’re going to have

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brent_peterson: to google that because it’s quite hilarious.

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brent_peterson: Look up. the

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brent_peterson: Cone of silence in the original gets smart from the nineteen sixties.

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kalen: You’re going to have an entire to do list of things to Google by the time you’re

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kalen: done with this podcast, Which is

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brent_peterson: Absolutely, it’s hilarious.

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kalen: it? Just as it should be

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brent_peterson: Um, for so for soundproofing, I’m building a little home studio in my

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brent_peterson: basement, Um, not like

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brent_peterson: t. ▁j gamble. I’m not going to gamble hundreds of thousands of dollars on my

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brent_peterson: sound studio. I’m probably

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kalen: First of all, No,

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brent_peterson: no, nobody.

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kalen: nobody does anything quite like T. ▁j gamble, so that

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brent_peterson: Yeah, nobody can compete against that. I’m going to

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brent_peterson: spend two percent of my budget. Uh, like that. as compared to his hundred

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brent_peterson: percent, he’s going to be the United States military infrastructure, and I’m

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brent_peterson: going to be like

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brent_peterson: Um for

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brent_peterson: for budgeting towards

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brent_peterson: my my studio. But this morning I was recording and I got everything all set

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brent_peterson: up very nicely, made the

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brent_peterson: mistake of leaving the door upstairs open and we have a new Jack

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brent_peterson: Russell. so the next thing I know is Susan’s

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kalen: That’ll do it.

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brent_peterson: running down the stairs. Turns the corner and all I hear is No,

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brent_peterson: And the this little puppies’s found the basement. and and we have carpeting

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brent_peterson: and has discovered that. Hey, this carpet is just like grass.

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brent_peterson: So if you listen

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kalen: just like grass.

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brent_peterson: to my, if you listen to my podcast today with Ysa Ritzma, there will be a

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brent_peterson: person yelling in the background that only comes in

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brent_peterson: for a second, and I will give a Starbucks gift card if you can pick out that

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brent_peterson: exact time five dollar

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kalen: Ah. okay,

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brent_peterson: Gar, Starbucks gift card If you could pick out the. If you give me the time

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brent_peterson: signature on that

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kalen: very cool.

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brent_peterson: Yeah, big spender.

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kalen: Well, if the link is up, if the link is up, I will. I literally will stop our podcast

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kalen: right now and just go find that. because

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brent_peterson: Hey, th. I. I. I recorded that early this morning and I published it

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kalen: Okay and it’s up. Okay be cause. I, I mean, honestly, I’d rather just get the gift

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kalen: certificate. I mean, you know,

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kalen: as much as I enjoy chatting, I I could really use.

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brent_peterson: for for you, I would send it anyways,

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kalen: Okay. Well, I, I, I’m in. I’m go to hold you to that. Uh, cause I, you know, I really

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kalen: need the Co. These are tough times and I could use a gift card right about now for

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brent_peterson: as you sit in your Um, modelles Tesle models that you probably

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kalen: some coffee.

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brent_peterson: got hand delivered from from Yn musk.

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kalen: well, we. You know, we do hang out from time to time.

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kalen: He’s a good guy. Are you pro Elon Mosqu or anti Yon mosque? This is my new. Okay.

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brent_peterson: I’m pro. Do you not read? You know, do you not look at your social media

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kalen: I read. No, I. no, I read. I read. I mean, I. I read a lot of stuff. Um,

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brent_peterson: when you? okay, Yeah,

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kalen: I read the New York Times Covered to cover every morning.

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brent_peterson: I don’t

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kalen: I, you know, No, I don’t.

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kalen: either. I don’t. either.

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brent_peterson: sit there with your cigar. Your cigarette at the at the kitchen or the

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brent_peterson: kitchen table, drinking your coffee reading the New York Times.

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kalen: Yeah, a hundred percent, You sitting in my easy chair. That’s how it should be, you

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brent_peterson: Yep, in pajamas Before before eleven. When you have to get up when you have

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brent_peterson: to actually go and think about doing your sabatical

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brent_peterson: and not working.

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kalen: Yeah, it’s tough. it’s tough.

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kalen: Uh, So what? what? Uh? What did you talk to Yssie about today? Man, y, I saw his post

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kalen: on the open source situation. I,

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kalen: I, um. I agreed with a lot of it. I was happy that he said a lot of stuff he said.

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kalen: But what did you guys rant about?

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brent_peterson: so I think W. we. We tried to dig into what is the issue here? Um, and it’s

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brent_peterson: really not. It’s not about forking or not forking right, and I didn’t make

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brent_peterson: the joke about Uh, my my neighbor, as I was growing up. Uh, I grew up in

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brent_peterson: Golden valley, Minnesota, and my neighbor had a uh, at a had like a thirty

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brent_peterson: two Cadillac, this giant car, and he got personalized license plates on the

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brent_peterson: car that said four ▁q two.

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brent_peterson: Um, and I’m sure it had nothing to do with Uh, forking a Github repository

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brent_peterson: or any sort of repository. Uh, because it was like

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kalen: You never know.

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brent_peterson: this is a. This is in the late seventies, anyways,

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kalen: I mean, maybe William is seventy four years old and he just is, is aged very well,

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brent_peterson: y. He, he carries it very well anyway, so I don’t think that this is a. The.

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brent_peterson: The issue here is not about forking or not forking. The issue is about

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brent_peterson: transparency and communication from Adobe.

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brent_peterson: And the second issue then is about the Magento Association and how much can

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brent_peterson: they share?

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brent_peterson: How much control do they have? And what do people think they can do

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kalen: Yeah, I think it’s all. Yeah, there is kind of. It’s all kind of bundled together and

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kalen: it’ weird. I feel like even talking right. You’re in a doobe partner, right, I

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kalen: assume, unless you’ve gotten pulled from the partner program for making tons of

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kalen: horrible dad jokes, which I assume could happen at any point.

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brent_peterson: getting close?

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kalen: but like it, you know when people are in the partner program they can’t necessarily

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kalen: you know,

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kalen: throw out whatever ideas or whatever thoughts they might have, so I’m always I’m

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kalen: always kind of tipt toing, like you know what I mean, like like, I feel like when I I

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kalen: watch the panel and it feels like people are tipt toing and tipt toing and tipt

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brent_peterson: Yeah, really

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kalen: toing, And it’s like you know, I don’t even want to ask you too many questions about

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kalen: it be cause I don’t. I don’t want to get anybody in trouble. Noody, wants to get in

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kalen: trouble. You know what I mean like, so, which I think is part of the issue. You know,

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kalen: I think is part of the challenge is that

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kalen: everybody’s just so you

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kalen: know. Well, it’s

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brent_peterson: Yeah. but what is the issue here? I think the issue is pretty clear that and

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brent_peterson: they stated it right.

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brent_peterson: They, this so again. This makes for a lot of unknown variables. There is no

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brent_peterson: public road map from a gentle open source and this has

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brent_peterson: left a lot of the community

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brent_peterson: who believe in the monolith who believe in the model is a valid approach to

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brent_peterson: many cases feeling uneasy about the future in Ma Geno,

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brent_peterson: So I think

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brent_peterson: it, and I don’t think it’s about forking or not forking. It’s not really

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brent_peterson: about about monolith or splitting up into micro services. It really is about

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brent_peterson: helping people understand where the open sources where the open source of

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brent_peterson: magenta is going.

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kalen: right, right and a, and I just feel like, Um,

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kalen: you know I, you know I’m I’m a little bit further from the details these days. As far

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kalen: as what exactly they’re introducing with the micros, and how that’s differing from

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kalen: the the traditional kind of moth. I bundle together lots of different things under

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kalen: this category of like community unrest, like the the, The people that have been

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kalen: complaining about con, contributing the people that have posted an issue to Gith hub

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kalen: and they get no response And then ninety days later the issue gets auto closed,

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kalen: right, Or you know, Uh, Jacob Winkler has posted a lot about stuff he’s contributed

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kalen: and it just gets. it. just sits there. I talked to Damie and Retzinger about that

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kalen: yesterday, Lukash, uh, uh. What’s his face? that? Um, uh, he’s going to get mad of me

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kalen: for that that had similar issues. It’s just like there’s all this stuff where there’s

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kalen: all this energy of the com. Like when I said something to me, said like there’s this

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kalen: energy and if it’s not sort of harnessed it gets frustrated And that’s what I see

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kalen: from. Like The Twenty thousand foot view is like there’s people waiting around on P.

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kalen: Rs. there’s people waiting around for architectural direction. There’s just all this

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kalen: and it’s just like Hey, let’s start a dialogue with a dooby. What does that even mean

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kalen: start a dialogue like I want. like I want to see people just do stuff you know, Like

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kalen: William came out with Hooa, and everybody loves it. He reinvented the front end.

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kalen: Everybody loves it right. it’s it’s he’s doing stuff. He’s actually making stuff

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kalen: happen independently. I feel like that’s kind of the spir. I’m on a rant here. I’m on

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kalen: a full on rent. Um,

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kalen: anyways, I feel like that’s kind of the spirit of Magento is that we just go out and

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kalen: we do stuff, whether that’s in the form of a a module that we create and contribute

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kalen: or whatever. we just do stuff. And we don’t sit around waiting for approval from

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kalen: anybody, and I feel like we’ve just been sitting around waiting for approvals. You

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kalen: know now, I, that’s just my. I could be completely wrong about that ’cause I’m not

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kalen: very on the ground connected all this stuff

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brent_peterson: Yeah, I think they’re I. you’re. You’re very correct in saying that people

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brent_peterson: are sitting around waiting for

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brent_peterson: fixes to get put in and I think that uh

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brent_peterson: that Adobe has definitely missed the boat in terms of making sure that from

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brent_peterson: the community side they’re keeping up with what’s happening on those on

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brent_peterson: those poll requests and and those fixes, because they are

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kalen: right, right,

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brent_peterson: missing out on a huge amount of potential bugs that are in the code already

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brent_peterson: and that are getting fixed And it’s a.

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brent_peterson: It’s a Mi. You know thousands of coders that are out there helping that. Um.

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brent_peterson: So that’s one issue. The other issue that you brought up is what is the road

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brent_peterson: map of Magento? Um. I think there’s sort of a road map for the commerce

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brent_peterson: version of it, but it’s not. It hasn’t been published since Say twenty

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brent_peterson: nineteen, Uh, Since the last time we had a live conference. Um, I don’t know

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brent_peterson: if they’ve actually put out at any like Meet Me Genento, India, or any like

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brent_peterson: this. Meet me Gentle Poland, Did anybody from a doobe show up for the

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brent_peterson: virtual part of it? I haven’t seen the whole conference yet,

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brent_peterson: but did

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kalen: yeah, I know, I just I just know they said that they had a travel restriction so as

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kalen: far as actually going, nobody actually went there in person.

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brent_peterson: yeah. So, um, you know that’s that be? I think, just helping us to

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brent_peterson: where we’re going the last time I saw Anton Cririll, before he left Magento.

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brent_peterson: he gave a speech at Meet Magento Germany about Magenta moving to isolated

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brent_peterson: And I’m okay with that. And the reason is is you can still put those

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brent_peterson: isolated services together as a monoliphs, and and deploy it now. Yes and I

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brent_peterson: had the conversation this morning about. Does that mean? Uh, you’re going to

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brent_peterson: have to use something like G, P, r, S, or some. He. He had a technical term

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brent_peterson: that have already forgotten. Um. they’re They’re like a graphq, ▁, type of

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brent_peterson: interface that’s internal that binds those services together And is that

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brent_peterson: going to be slower than not binding them together? I don’t know who. I don’t

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brent_peterson: care. because if it isn’t that, doobe’s probably going to fix it. So is it

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brent_peterson: is the

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brent_peterson: monolither really an issue or not? I don’t know. I think what the issue is

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brent_peterson: is like what they’ve done with Uh, with search. they’ve deprecated uh, a Mi

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brent_peterson: sequel search in favor of elastic search. without giving the option of

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brent_peterson: having just a regular. Uh, my sequel search, and

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brent_peterson: jeeze, I know that everybody loves my sequel search. They love the fact

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brent_peterson: that as you search for anything, you bring everything up on the database.

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brent_peterson: What could be better

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brent_peterson: than if you had a thousand things? And no matter what you search for, you

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brent_peterson: always get a thousand results. See, I’m

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brent_peterson: being sarcastic. Now you’re not even laughing,

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kalen: I. I didn’t even catch that because all I was thinking about was going into my next

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brent_peterson: So what you’re saying is what I hear you saying. Now is you’re not actually

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brent_peterson: listening to me? You’re

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kalen: I. I let me,

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brent_peterson: just thinking about what you’re going to say next.

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kalen: you know I did make that mistake, but let me take a step back. Let me take a step

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kalen: back. And what you said was there is a thousand things in the database and every se

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kalen: ▁query returns you without. So you’re saying My sequel is horrendous for research. Is

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kalen: what you trying to say?

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brent_peterson: It sucks. but at least it works at the some degree, and it gives somebody

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brent_peterson: that basic option if they want to. You know that the issue

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kalen: I? yeah,

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brent_peterson: is making it as little like you want to make sure that it’s is the. the. The

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brent_peterson: complication on the infrastructure side is low, so people are. Are it’s easy

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brent_peterson: entry? right? We don’t

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kalen: yes, yes,

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brent_peterson: want it to be super complicated that people don’t want to use it, Or it’s

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brent_peterson: something that’s

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brent_peterson: only for big enterprise companies to use.

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kalen: right, I, And and and I heard that sort of said so many different ways by Will and

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kalen: others on the panel Is. it’s like

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kalen: keeping things simple. Um, you know so that people can get into it simply so that

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kalen: it’s not this this super overcomplicated thing to work with. Of course on the higher

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kalen: end, things are always going to get more complicated. Um, for different types of more

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kalen: complex projects, Um, but like, Yeah, like if you can just keep things simple and

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kalen: easy to use. Um, there’s so much power in that I can’t. you know. I can’t give a a

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kalen: technical argument for elastic search versus my asqeel. Um. I sort of you know I. I

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kalen: kind of follow the community. I see if people are upset and disgruntled. And then

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kalen: that’s what I kind of pay attention to these days.

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kalen: Um. but and again, I, I think Hoova is this huge precedent where I know it’s only a

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kalen: front end. I know it’s not all a Magento, but a significant chunk of Magento was re

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kalen: in, imagined in a very simple way, right, like less jobacript, less complexity and

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kalen: it’s been successful and people love working with it. Um. and it works in the real

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kalen: world. In production. This isn’t like somebody, the rantings of somebody that hasn’t

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kalen: actually done anything in the real world, So I feel like it’s taking that same

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kalen: Um approach. Like they were talking about how you can’t compete in Magento. with sass

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kalen: offerings. You can’t do anything for ten thousand dollars. You can’t do anything at

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kalen: all in these lower price ranges. Um. and they were saying, you know now with whoever

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kalen: they’re able to compete at some of these lower Um price targets in Europe and

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kalen: different markets, which for them is is a win. you know, and it just opens up. you

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kalen: know. The. that’s what our roots are in the Magental community. I mean, I’m preaching

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kalen: of the choir here literally. Because you, you, you sing in your choir, Um,

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kalen: do you still sing in your choir? By the way?

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brent_peterson: Um. I am signed up to play piano at church in October. Yes,

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kalen: that’s right. that’s right.

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brent_peterson: first time of the year.

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kalen: Oh, nice.

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kalen: nice. that’s cool. So, anyways, I don’t know, man, uh, it’s um,

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kalen: proof will be in the pudding. That’s another thing. the I said on the on the panel

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kalen: which I really enjoyed. It was very, very interesting.

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brent_peterson: No, I think that, Uh that. I mean, I think that William Willm has started

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brent_peterson: something that that has been that has been lacking in our community. Um, if

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brent_peterson: we look back at what happened when Ebay bought Magento, it took about three

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brent_peterson: years for

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brent_peterson: for them to realize that there is a strong underpinning of public sentiment

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brent_peterson: that that evolved around Magento and Um. There was a number of people that

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brent_peterson: got invited to the imagined conference, and uh, Um and Um, you know they.

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brent_peterson: re. They sort of reinvigorated the community and then I think the next year

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brent_peterson: they sold they sold it. Um,

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brent_peterson: so um?

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brent_peterson: when uh? you know, I think when Uh, Marco of Veltic took over, then there

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brent_peterson: was this recom commitment to the Mu to the community. I’m interested in

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brent_peterson: learning Uh, from people that that were involved in say, uh, a M, a patache

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brent_peterson: sling or one of the other open source platforms that they have. Uh, what

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brent_peterson: what that community looks like? And I know it’s a different

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brent_peterson: type of community. I think a M’s on Java. Um, and it’s a little bit more

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brent_peterson: mature maybe than

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brent_peterson: Magento, But it’d be interesting to see what what’s happened to those people

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brent_peterson: and do. does. Uh. does a doobe still listen to them?

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kalen: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I want to say, Cordova, or Phone Gap, or one of

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kalen: those was also one of the bigger open source projects that had been acquired, and I

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kalen: was always curious about the same thing. You know how, how how have things gone with

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kalen: some of these other open source communities?

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kalen: but I don’t know. I think. probably the fact that we don’t already know like they’re

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kalen: not there. There isn’t like a druple community out there. There isn’t a typo three

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brent_peterson: Well, there is a Dple community.

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kalen: out there. There’s a no. no, No, No, but I’m saying Under Adobe

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brent_peterson: Oh, right. okay, got it.

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kalen: Like there there, you know there isn’t there. Aren’t one of these kind of bigger open

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kalen: source communities that you think of immediately,

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kalen: So yes, I mean, I, I don’t really know. And then, of course you know more and more

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kalen: people are leaving every day, right like Matt. A C was there for a while and he was

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kalen: rara open source. Then he was gone and bed bargs, of course is, uh, is uh now at uh,

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kalen: not sp, uh, shopware, right,

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brent_peterson: not at Spriker.

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kalen: um, I was going to say spriker, um, um, uh, Geto moved to Spriker, right,

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390
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kalen: So you know, um, Yeah, there’s just this like, Uh, You know a lot of people like

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kalen: Anton’s at Word Press at W, P engine, right, Pyoter is at. Is it Uh, w P,

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brent_peterson: I thought he’ at Big commerce. Yeah,

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kalen: engine, big Haer, for Yeah, first it was W P, and then big

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kalen: commerce. Right, So it’s like

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brent_peterson: Yeah, I think

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kalen: and then

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brent_peterson: that you know, and when they get so large that those people are going to

400
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brent_peterson: come and go, And that’s just that’s the reality of what it is. And uh, you

401
00:21:24,480 –> 00:21:29,520
brent_peterson: know. The. The. I think the the key point there is that the community can’t

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brent_peterson: be made up of any one person or group of people at Adobe Slash Magento, And

403
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brent_peterson: the community never was made up of core people at Magento. The community

404
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405
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brent_peterson: was made up of our community, and if you

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407
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brent_peterson: look all the way back to that first imagin conference, Um, it was. you know,

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brent_peterson: a whole bunch of people from all over the world that made up that community,

409
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410
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brent_peterson: Germans and French people, and a few Americans.

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412
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brent_peterson: Um. That kind of that that start started there. or at least we the some of

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brent_peterson: the core people in that community, then, Um. and that that’s just continue

414
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brent_peterson: to change and and grow and

415
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brent_peterson: ebb and flow. Um, and

416
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417
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brent_peterson: people come and go and and join and leave and are interested and not

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419
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brent_peterson: But I think that’s that’s the key part of it and that’s where I think that’s

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brent_peterson: where Willm and Vn and and the team at Um at Whofa have have tapped into.

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brent_peterson: and now this open letter now has spurred something

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brent_peterson: that is, is causing people to at least raise their eyebrows. Wake up, you

423
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kalen: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

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brent_peterson: and and take some notice. and something iss happening.

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kalen: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’m even feeling re energized, you know, and and I, you know,

427
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kalen: I’ve got other stuff I’m starting to focus on. I always feel guilty that I, I don’t

428
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kalen: do. you know, Uh, do more for the association and different things like that. And um,

429
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kalen: you know I, I, I’ve drift. My interests have drifted, you know, as like a lot of

430
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kalen: people do. Um, but yeah, this whole thing has kind of got me all excited and

431
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kalen: bothered, you know,

432
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kalen: and got me you know, thinking about things and kind of thinking back to like. What is

433
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kalen: that original Magento community spirit that’s somehow being expressed? Um. here,

434
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kalen: Um, you know, a little bit of a rebellious

435
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kalen: spirit. It, or at least it kind of an independent. You know, there’s a real

436
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kalen: independent streak in the Magento community you know, and I think.

437
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brent_peterson: Yeah, and I think, Uh, you know Yov and and and Roy and Bob were all

438
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brent_peterson: very independent minded people who promoted that culture in our community.

439
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brent_peterson: And really

440
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441
00:23:51,680 –> 00:23:56,240
brent_peterson: the the key was that they promoted innovation that happened in it. And I

442
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brent_peterson: think the one thing that we are, we are sorely missing in Gentle

443
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brent_peterson: specifically is that drive from leadership and else, just say, leadership is

444
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brent_peterson: at the Adobe level here that drive to innovate and have the community

445
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brent_peterson: innovate, and the frustrations that you mentioned earlier around, maybe and

446
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brent_peterson: around, not getting pull requests done,

447
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448
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brent_peterson: If you can’t get a poll request done and looked at for a error, how what is

449
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brent_peterson: your chances of getting a poll request for something that is contributing

450
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brent_peterson: that is actually innovative to Magento rather than just fixing something?

451
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kalen: right. right.

452
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kalen: Yeah, totally. And and I don’t know, I don’t know what the realities are on the

453
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kalen: ground. I’m sure that they’ve got a a tough work load Is probably hard to manage all

454
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kalen: these issues and things that are coming in. There’s probably a lot of noise coming

455
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456
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kalen: so it’s probably a hard tricky thing to solve. But I don’t know. I just feel like if

457
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kalen: the community sort of just did their own fork, I kind of just feel like it would. It

458
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kalen: would just I want to believe that it would work better. And and maybe that’s naive?

459
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kalen: you know, maybe at this scale that’s completely naive. I don’t know. but I, I’m like,

460
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kalen: let’s do it. Let’s you know, let’s let’s see what this thing would be. You know.

461
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brent_peterson: Yeah, I’m not. I’m not uh. convinced on forking yet, Um. I, um. I, I would

462
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brent_peterson: like to have. I would like to have Adobe energized a little bit more

463
00:25:29,280 –> 00:25:35,440
brent_peterson: internally to kind of see some value in what the community can do, Um, and I

464
00:25:35,520 –> 00:25:38,320
brent_peterson: know that there’s an answer for whatever is out there,

465
00:25:39,360 –> 00:25:43,440
brent_peterson: Um to fix. And I think you know the reality too. Is that? what? what? I

466
00:25:43,520 –> 00:25:48,720
brent_peterson: don’t remember? What year they started publishing Um. G, the code on Github.

467
00:25:49,600 –> 00:25:53,840
brent_peterson: It wasn’t that long ago that we couldn’t even contribute to bug fixes. That

468
00:25:53,920 –> 00:25:56,160
brent_peterson: you had to email somebody and email your patch.

469
00:25:55,753 –> 00:25:56,753
470
00:25:56,400 –> 00:25:57,840
brent_peterson: and hopefully it got looked at.

471
00:25:58,353 –> 00:25:59,353
472
00:25:58,880 –> 00:26:03,440
brent_peterson: You know that that we where it’s been it’s It’s relatively new that we could

473
00:26:03,600 –> 00:26:09,360
brent_peterson: actually co. We could, we could do a Poquest and we could uh offer that as a

474
00:26:09,020 –> 00:26:10,020
475
00:26:10,713 –> 00:26:11,713
476
00:26:11,520 –> 00:26:15,840
brent_peterson: I think that they just need to make pay some attention to it, and you know

477
00:26:16,160 –> 00:26:19,840
brent_peterson: just really what it comes back down to, though is just communication and

478
00:26:20,000 –> 00:26:23,120
brent_peterson: transparency. If they were to come out and say hey, we don’t have enough

479
00:26:23,280 –> 00:26:26,400
brent_peterson: people to do this. We don’t have enough people to actually look at all these

480
00:26:26,560 –> 00:26:27,680
brent_peterson: bugs that you’re putting in.

481
00:26:28,573 –> 00:26:33,933
kalen: right, right. like people have asked. like, okay, Wh, What exactly these associations

482
00:26:34,093 –> 00:26:38,973
kalen: roll with open source? Is the association doing events only? are they going to be

483
00:26:39,293 –> 00:26:43,853
kalen: somehow, you know, in charge of open source. And then, like I think, it was said in

484
00:26:43,933 –> 00:26:48,253
kalen: the panel yesterday that like a dialogue was started with a doobe on the topic,

485
00:26:48,653 –> 00:26:52,973
kalen: right, What exactly does that mean that a dialogue was started like you’re saying

486
00:26:53,213 –> 00:26:58,973
kalen: Transparency. like. Okay, Who’s the person that is in charge of this when? like?

487
00:26:59,453 –> 00:27:05,213
kalen: like? When was the issue raised? How much time has passed? When when are we going to

488
00:27:05,293 –> 00:27:09,933
kalen: get an answer? You know, so I guess you’re I think you’re right From that perspective

489
00:27:10,093 –> 00:27:16,333
kalen: Is Is is like. If we could get transparency, Um, that would, that would be great and

490
00:27:16,413 –> 00:27:21,773
kalen: I don’t. I don’t think anybody there is like a bad guy like. I just think I don’t

491
00:27:21,853 –> 00:27:25,613
kalen: know. They probably have their own internal meetings and internal policies and

492
00:27:25,773 –> 00:27:31,133
kalen: they’re just doing their job. You know, But something is amiss

493
00:27:32,973 –> 00:27:40,333
kalen: so as something’s not aligned, so like, how can we? I don’t know how. I don’t know.

494
00:27:40,273 –> 00:27:41,273
kalen: you know.

495
00:27:40,880 –> 00:27:45,840
brent_peterson: Yeah, you’ going to love my next analogy. Um, so if we were to look at the

496
00:27:45,840 –> 00:27:51,040
brent_peterson: Magento Association as being sort of this socialistic type, En

497
00:27:52,640 –> 00:27:56,960
brent_peterson: has to do everything as a collective and it doesn’t want to upset the

498
00:27:57,040 –> 00:27:58,400
brent_peterson: masses, so

499
00:27:58,113 –> 00:27:59,113
500
00:27:58,640 –> 00:28:02,080
brent_peterson: everything is very, very vanilla and and even

501
00:28:01,633 –> 00:28:02,633
kalen: yes, yes,

502
00:28:02,480 –> 00:28:09,360
brent_peterson: keel. And if if you were to stand, there’s no room for dissenters or people

503
00:28:09,680 –> 00:28:14,400
brent_peterson: to ra to stand up and say Hey, We got to move faster. There’s no room for

504
00:28:14,560 –> 00:28:19,120
brent_peterson: anything to happen quickly because it has to go through so many processes

505
00:28:19,280 –> 00:28:22,400
brent_peterson: and it has to go through ▁x, y and ▁z. And there’s

506
00:28:22,193 –> 00:28:23,193
kalen: exactly exactly,

507
00:28:22,880 –> 00:28:26,400
brent_peterson: that that’s just not going to happen. So you know, I don’t know if that’s

508
00:28:26,560 –> 00:28:30,320
brent_peterson: goingnna get any better, and I don’t know why it would be any better in the

509
00:28:30,400 –> 00:28:34,000
brent_peterson: in A. in this Mag, major open source community alliance.

510
00:28:35,040 –> 00:28:39,200
brent_peterson: They were able to make that letter happen quickly because they only involved

511
00:28:39,360 –> 00:28:43,760
brent_peterson: the people that were there right. So, if we were to say and I, you know,

512
00:28:43,840 –> 00:28:46,880
brent_peterson: like I didn’t know. Apparently that letter was floating around for a week.

513
00:28:48,080 –> 00:28:54,000
brent_peterson: Um, so it was it was seen by a few people, which I can understand. But if

514
00:28:54,160 –> 00:28:58,080
brent_peterson: you were now to say okay, I want to have everybody see it. Okay. Well now

515
00:28:58,240 –> 00:28:59,840
brent_peterson: everybody’s going to have a different opinion,

516
00:29:00,193 –> 00:29:01,193
517
00:29:00,880 –> 00:29:05,440
brent_peterson: And and uh, suddenly you get mired down in in, Um,

518
00:29:06,480 –> 00:29:10,000
brent_peterson: in a whole bunch of you know what, not so good

519
00:29:09,533 –> 00:29:10,813
kalen: a whole bunch of moarchy.

520
00:29:11,120 –> 00:29:13,920
brent_peterson: molchy. That’s a great word. Thank you for that, Um,

521
00:29:15,440 –> 00:29:20,640
brent_peterson: and that moarchy. Then just keeps us, keeps our feet stuck and we can’t move

522
00:29:20,880 –> 00:29:24,160
brent_peterson: because we’re waiting to get out of this moarchy, where

523
00:29:24,113 –> 00:29:25,113
kalen: Yeah, yeah, I mean

524
00:29:24,480 –> 00:29:28,000
brent_peterson: if if you’ more, if you’re smaller and more agile, you can make those

525
00:29:28,240 –> 00:29:30,880
brent_peterson: decisions quickly and go forward. It’s kinda like

526
00:29:30,633 –> 00:29:31,633
527
00:29:31,360 –> 00:29:36,160
brent_peterson: it’s kinda like you know as a leader you need to make those decision. You

528
00:29:36,240 –> 00:29:40,400
brent_peterson: have to do it sometimes unilaterally, Uh, because you need to make ‘

529
00:29:40,220 –> 00:29:41,220
530
00:29:42,000 –> 00:29:47,040
brent_peterson: and as you know as somebody that is an entrepreneur, then that is part of

531
00:29:47,200 –> 00:29:50,320
brent_peterson: the culture. But if you’re looking at something where it’s a bigger

532
00:29:50,560 –> 00:29:54,720
brent_peterson: organization like Adobe or like Smith Buckland, and you have to follow a

533
00:29:54,800 –> 00:29:59,600
brent_peterson: whole set of rules, and uh, you have to go through every single step and

534
00:29:59,680 –> 00:30:01,920
brent_peterson: whoop, and there is no room

535
00:30:03,200 –> 00:30:05,520
brent_peterson: for for pushing the envelope, Because

536
00:30:06,340 –> 00:30:07,340
537
00:30:06,433 –> 00:30:07,433
538
00:30:07,040 –> 00:30:10,320
brent_peterson: will we do? Well, I guess you know what we really need here is Elon Musk,

539
00:30:12,173 –> 00:30:13,773
kalen: that’s what it comes back to.

540
00:30:12,960 –> 00:30:16,160
brent_peterson: He would say he would save Ma Gentta, open source.

541
00:30:16,973 –> 00:30:25,293
kalen: I mean, I think Willm is the Elon musk. You know, Um, which um, you know. I think you

542
00:30:25,193 –> 00:30:26,193
kalen: know that you need

543
00:30:27,133 –> 00:30:31,453
kalen: Um. I, I’m a big believer in what individuals can do right like you, you do through

544
00:30:31,613 –> 00:30:37,133
kalen: out the analogy of of Um, socialism, or kind of collectivism, which is kind of

545
00:30:37,373 –> 00:30:39,053
kalen: contrasted against kind of

546
00:30:40,093 –> 00:30:44,333
kalen: individual. What? what an individual or a small group of individuals can do right? I

547
00:30:44,413 –> 00:30:49,133
kalen: mean, I think of Laravelle, started by Taus, one guy, Taylor Otwell, you know, And

548
00:30:49,053 –> 00:30:55,053
kalen: and it’s it’s this huge ecosystem that’s grown, but he’s continued as the kind of B D

549
00:30:55,133 –> 00:31:00,893
kalen: F. ▁l, You know the sort of benev benevolent dictator for life. And and it’s it’s

550
00:31:01,133 –> 00:31:03,853
kalen: it’s doing great. right’s thriving. Um,

551
00:31:05,293 –> 00:31:07,373
kalen: whereas Magento is kind of Um,

552
00:31:08,413 –> 00:31:10,253
kalen: stagnated in in some ways,

553
00:31:11,693 –> 00:31:16,653
kalen: and anyway, I, you know, I just think that and I and I know he probably hates it

554
00:31:16,733 –> 00:31:22,093
kalen: every time I. I sort of make a big deal out of him individually. Um, because he’s

555
00:31:22,253 –> 00:31:27,293
kalen: trying to build a uh team and kind of, I think catalyze kind of a broader movement

556
00:31:27,613 –> 00:31:29,453
kalen: you know, but um,

557
00:31:30,493 –> 00:31:35,293
kalen: yeah, man, I mean, you know I, I think one person can can build something you know.

558
00:31:35,533 –> 00:31:39,773
kalen: Incredible. It’s like it’s like the mythical Man month. you know, I’m sure Doobe’s

559
00:31:39,853 –> 00:31:45,373
kalen: throwing tons of resources at various things. I’m sure if you looked at their burn

560
00:31:45,613 –> 00:31:51,293
kalen: charts and their budgets, they would be significant. But that doesn’t always mean

561
00:31:51,533 –> 00:31:56,813
kalen: that you know things are getting done And and I know that people on the association

562
00:31:56,973 –> 00:32:03,133
kalen: have put in a ton of effort a ton of time, a ton of blood tears. I just you know,

563
00:32:03,533 –> 00:32:09,053
kalen: that doesn’t always guarantee like results right. Sometimes one person or a small

564
00:32:09,293 –> 00:32:15,773
kalen: group of people can get stuff done super fast, right on on a on a shoes string

565
00:32:15,673 –> 00:32:16,673
566
00:32:18,733 –> 00:32:23,613
kalen: whereas the bigger incumbent right can spend a lot of money. Really a lot of time and

567
00:32:23,853 –> 00:32:26,733
kalen: not really go as fast. You

568
00:32:27,680 –> 00:32:30,720
brent_peterson: Yeah, no, I think you, you hit it there and there’ two sides of that whole

569
00:32:30,960 –> 00:32:36,160
brent_peterson: thing about about collective collectivism. There is a broad community that

570
00:32:36,320 –> 00:32:41,920
brent_peterson: can support a A. a. a, Um, a dream of somebody. and that that broad

571
00:32:42,160 –> 00:32:46,160
brent_peterson: community it kind come together in the terms of Magento and fix a whole

572
00:32:46,240 –> 00:32:51,360
brent_peterson: bunch of bugs. Right, uh, but if that, but what that broad community can’t

573
00:32:51,520 –> 00:32:52,800
brent_peterson: do as a community

574
00:32:53,700 –> 00:32:54,700
575
00:32:55,360 –> 00:33:00,560
brent_peterson: C is is always agree on what is the next best thing that we. What is the

576
00:33:00,640 –> 00:33:06,400
brent_peterson: next big thing that we should do for our community to move us forward. Um,

577
00:33:06,640 –> 00:33:09,040
brent_peterson: because you are always going to have somebody that is more

578
00:33:10,400 –> 00:33:14,400
brent_peterson: all, used a word conservative and liberal. Uh, not in the political sense,

579
00:33:14,640 –> 00:33:17,520
brent_peterson: but just if you think about it, the people would like. Some people in our

580
00:33:17,600 –> 00:33:20,560
brent_peterson: community would like it to stay the way it has been, and some people would

581
00:33:20,720 –> 00:33:23,680
brent_peterson: like to grow into new things. And there’s new people coming to the community

582
00:33:24,080 –> 00:33:27,680
brent_peterson: that know. Don’t care about what happened in Magenta One. they, they’re

583
00:33:27,760 –> 00:33:30,560
brent_peterson: they’re in. They’re involved in a genento, too. Uh,

584
00:33:30,273 –> 00:33:31,273
kalen: right, right,

585
00:33:30,720 –> 00:33:34,080
brent_peterson: and they would like to see that. So there’s all kinds of opposing views that

586
00:33:34,160 –> 00:33:38,880
brent_peterson: are happening. So the two sides are are the broad community, Help support it

587
00:33:39,200 –> 00:33:44,080
brent_peterson: and maintain it, and and make sure that we’re we’re growing. In a flat

588
00:33:44,400 –> 00:33:47,520
brent_peterson: sense. You know we’re growing. but it’s it’s really just maintaining

589
00:33:47,760 –> 00:33:51,840
brent_peterson: something. Then there’s the little people that are poking things at it that

590
00:33:51,920 –> 00:33:54,720
brent_peterson: are lighting fighters here and there, like the Hofa theme,

591
00:33:55,153 –> 00:33:56,153
592
00:33:55,680 –> 00:33:59,600
brent_peterson: And those people are the ones that are sticking out that are making things

593
00:33:59,300 –> 00:34:00,300
594
00:34:01,213 –> 00:34:02,253
kalen: right, y

595
00:34:02,640 –> 00:34:09,600
brent_peterson: So you know, in terms of I, in terms of the uh, uh, Moska Moscow, Moska, M,

596
00:34:09,840 –> 00:34:12,400
brent_peterson: o, s, C, A. In terms of Mosa

597
00:34:11,853 –> 00:34:13,773
kalen: Magento, open source.

598
00:34:16,900 –> 00:34:17,900
599
00:34:17,693 –> 00:34:20,653
kalen: what is it Alliance Alliance? That’s it.

600
00:34:19,440 –> 00:34:23,760
brent_peterson: right, so you know? what does that mean? Okay? are they all going to? Uh? if

601
00:34:23,920 –> 00:34:26,800
brent_peterson: what if what if there is a bunch of people that would like to go with

602
00:34:26,960 –> 00:34:28,160
brent_peterson: isolated services

603
00:34:29,200 –> 00:34:34,640
brent_peterson: instead of micro services, And I would like my catalogu to be able to be

604
00:34:34,720 –> 00:34:39,600
brent_peterson: deployed differently than my my customer group, or whatever that is, Uh, or

605
00:34:39,760 –> 00:34:44,160
brent_peterson: my search, or or, however you want to deploy things, because it’ll make me

606
00:34:44,320 –> 00:34:48,800
brent_peterson: make. It’ll make my solution a little easier because I don’t change anything

607
00:34:49,200 –> 00:34:54,160
brent_peterson: but my catalog, and and I need to scale my catalogu, so I only want to scale

608
00:34:54,400 –> 00:34:56,480
brent_peterson: that part of it or whatever that pie is.

609
00:34:56,593 –> 00:34:57,593
kalen: Mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

610
00:34:57,200 –> 00:35:00,720
brent_peterson: Maybe there’s some people that want that and I, you know, I think that the

611
00:35:00,880 –> 00:35:03,680
brent_peterson: idea that that between p w a and hufah,

612
00:35:04,720 –> 00:35:11,120
brent_peterson: uh, a bolted on theme versus a a p w A’s theme. Um, you know that’s just the

613
00:35:11,200 –> 00:35:13,200
brent_peterson: beginning of making it more complicated

614
00:35:14,240 –> 00:35:20,160
brent_peterson: and does, does it? Um. Does it make it so much more complicated that people

615
00:35:20,180 –> 00:35:21,180
brent_peterson: aren’t going to use it?

616
00:35:22,973 –> 00:35:25,613
kalen: Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of the million dollar question like

617
00:35:27,773 –> 00:35:32,253
kalen: I don’t know, you know, I mean I. I. I did some stuff with like Laraville, which uh

618
00:35:32,413 –> 00:35:37,133
kalen: bundles all sorts of uh, modern jaasript stuff that I wasn’t familiar with Web,

619
00:35:38,413 –> 00:35:43,133
kalen: all sorts of stuff that I just was not at all familiar with and it mostly just worked

620
00:35:43,533 –> 00:35:47,373
kalen: right out of the box because they had it configured and packaged in a way that it was

621
00:35:47,453 –> 00:35:53,933
kalen: easy to get up and running and kind of on boarded me into this tool set. And um, my

622
00:35:54,093 –> 00:35:58,573
kalen: sense is that it’s sort of the exact opposite case with a lot of Theo stuff where

623
00:35:58,733 –> 00:36:02,973
kalen: it’s you. Things just take a long time to get to get going,

624
00:36:04,093 –> 00:36:08,253
kalen: and the complexity is slowing every you know everybody down.

625
00:36:09,233 –> 00:36:10,233
626
00:36:11,293 –> 00:36:14,413
kalen: I. I. I don’t know. I mean you, you would know better than I would you know what the

627
00:36:14,493 –> 00:36:19,853
kalen: pros and cons are to the isolated services. Um it it. It just seems like there’s this

628
00:36:20,013 –> 00:36:25,693
kalen: contingent that is saying. Let’s keep it simple. Um, Which makes sense to me. keep it

629
00:36:25,773 –> 00:36:30,973
kalen: simple. Stupid, Um, and I, I don’t know. It seems like the Enterprise Commerce

630
00:36:31,133 –> 00:36:34,093
kalen: edition. Whatever the heck is being called These days. They still call it Enterprise.

631
00:36:34,813 –> 00:36:37,853
kalen: Um, Is kind of Adobe Commerce.

632
00:36:38,893 –> 00:36:43,293
kalen: Enterprise Edition Is is. Can it be like a different thing? It just feels like it’s

633
00:36:43,373 –> 00:36:45,853
kalen: going to be an entirely different thing from

634
00:36:46,433 –> 00:36:47,433
635
00:36:48,013 –> 00:36:53,133
kalen: Magento is Now. I mean, why not just have it become an entirely different thing

636
00:36:53,293 –> 00:36:58,013
kalen: written in Jaa Micro serviceerists. I, I mean, I’m hearing that it’s going to be

637
00:36:58,093 –> 00:37:01,053
kalen: getting rewritten a Java or something like that. I don’t know where I heard that

638
00:37:01,133 –> 00:37:02,333
kalen: from, but um,

639
00:37:02,400 –> 00:37:04,240
brent_peterson: Well, you’re in Austin. So you should know?

640
00:37:04,893 –> 00:37:08,093
kalen: I should know these things. you know, I hear things I hear a little.

641
00:37:07,440 –> 00:37:10,480
brent_peterson: what Do you? You should be hanging out at the coffee shops? Although a Doobe

642
00:37:10,800 –> 00:37:14,080
brent_peterson: employees hang out and you should be overly overhearing their conversations.

643
00:37:14,813 –> 00:37:18,013
kalen: Well, maybe that’s what I do. Maybe that’s where this is coming from.

644
00:37:18,060 –> 00:37:19,060
brent_peterson: Okay, good.

645
00:37:18,253 –> 00:37:23,693
kalen: You know, you never you. You never know. you never know. but um, you know, maybe they

646
00:37:23,853 –> 00:37:28,573
kalen: should just be completely different things. I mean, just let let the open source

647
00:37:28,893 –> 00:37:35,933
kalen: Magento crazies let us do our thing with our little S and B market, and and let the

648
00:37:36,093 –> 00:37:39,853
kalen: up market. Uh, you know Doobe commerce guys go nuts.

649
00:37:40,973 –> 00:37:47,693
kalen: you know, go absolutely nuts with your architecture. Rewrite it in Java. rewrite it

650
00:37:47,773 –> 00:37:52,013
kalen: in in. go. laying. whatever you want to do. You know what I’m saying?

651
00:37:53,073 –> 00:37:54,073
kalen: Maybe that’s the answer

652
00:37:54,080 –> 00:38:00,160
brent_peterson: I think the key here is still the underlying issue. That is still. there is

653
00:38:00,320 –> 00:38:03,520
brent_peterson: just a lack of transparency and communication from Adobe.

654
00:38:04,633 –> 00:38:05,633
kalen: right, Yeah,

655
00:38:05,120 –> 00:38:08,320
brent_peterson: That’s all. I mean that what youve just said would solve everybody’s

656
00:38:08,400 –> 00:38:11,840
brent_peterson: problem, because if they did that, then sure be that people would fork it,

657
00:38:12,000 –> 00:38:17,040
brent_peterson: and we’d be off to the races with to open Source and the Ma,

658
00:38:18,080 –> 00:38:21,280
brent_peterson: or a Doobe commerce. then would its own little beast

659
00:38:22,320 –> 00:38:25,520
brent_peterson: that would live on on on through the Adobe world.

660
00:38:26,033 –> 00:38:27,033
661
00:38:26,960 –> 00:38:31,520
brent_peterson: I don’t know if Adobe would want to do that because I think they’ also left.

662
00:38:32,400 –> 00:38:37,040
brent_peterson: Uh, you know a patchy sling there, which is the undering experience manager

663
00:38:36,900 –> 00:38:37,900
664
00:38:37,393 –> 00:38:38,393
665
00:38:39,853 –> 00:38:44,573
kalen: you know I. I. I actually had a conversation with Dame and Retsgrey yesterday. Um, I

666
00:38:44,573 –> 00:38:50,013
kalen: don’t know if you know him, but he’s a. He’s a. He’s a cool guy and uh, he, um, it’s

667
00:38:50,093 –> 00:38:55,213
kalen: not live yet, but um, he was saying something really interesting, which is that a uh.

668
00:38:55,293 –> 00:39:01,133
kalen: Magento is kind of like open source, but not exactly in the sense that a lot of these

669
00:39:01,293 –> 00:39:04,973
kalen: architectural decisions right, like I heard from. I think one or two different

670
00:39:05,213 –> 00:39:09,373
kalen: people. The thing about Java. Okay, not going to say who, Because again, that’s kind

671
00:39:09,453 –> 00:39:13,693
kalen: of the nature of this beast is that it’s like you know a guy and you have a

672
00:39:13,773 –> 00:39:17,773
kalen: conversation with some person. But it’s off the record because they’re not supposed

673
00:39:17,853 –> 00:39:23,293
kalen: to be what right. And this is sort of exactly how open source is not supposed to

674
00:39:23,373 –> 00:39:27,773
kalen: work. Everything should be discussed out in the open. It should all be discussed on

675
00:39:27,853 –> 00:39:32,573
kalen: Github. Whoever was talking about rewriting it in Java, if in K. If they were in

676
00:39:32,733 –> 00:39:38,333
kalen: fact, that should just be discussed openly right look, but there’s all these backroom

677
00:39:38,653 –> 00:39:43,693
kalen: conversations right. there’s the partner ecosystem. There’s always these backroom

678
00:39:43,933 –> 00:39:48,493
kalen: conversations and part of that is, Uh, you know, there’s a closer relationship

679
00:39:48,813 –> 00:39:52,333
kalen: between partners and that’s that can be a good thing. That can be a feature, not a

680
00:39:52,413 –> 00:39:57,373
kalen: bug. but it’s it’s also just kind of. you know. it’s kind of wacky. The whole thing.

681
00:39:57,953 –> 00:39:58,953
682
00:39:59,700 –> 00:40:00,700
683
00:40:00,353 –> 00:40:01,353
kalen: you know, it’s kind of

684
00:40:00,400 –> 00:40:02,640
brent_peterson: that’s back to somebody’s got to make a decision.

685
00:40:03,713 –> 00:40:04,713
686
00:40:04,720 –> 00:40:08,880
brent_peterson: At some point, the decisions the the moving forward decisions have to be

687
00:40:08,960 –> 00:40:13,840
brent_peterson: made, and they shouldn’t involve every single person in the whole world. You

688
00:40:13,380 –> 00:40:14,380
689
00:40:14,173 –> 00:40:15,373
kalen: Well, okay, I mean

690
00:40:14,400 –> 00:40:17,120
brent_peterson: there, there’s going to have to be a group of leaders that that do that, and

691
00:40:17,200 –> 00:40:20,320
brent_peterson: they’re going to have to make that decision and then live with the live with

692
00:40:20,100 –> 00:40:21,100
brent_peterson: that decision.

693
00:40:23,193 –> 00:40:24,193
kalen: you could be R. I

694
00:40:24,253 –> 00:40:28,333
kalen: mean, yeah, I mean, you know that’s where leadership is. That’s where leadership is

695
00:40:24,320 –> 00:40:25,520
brent_peterson: That’s what leadership is.

696
00:40:28,493 –> 00:40:32,973
kalen: and in business, that’s that’s how sort of business works. Um, you know, you’ve been

697
00:40:33,053 –> 00:40:36,893
kalen: a business owner for many years and you’ve had to make those types of decisions and

698
00:40:36,953 –> 00:40:37,953
kalen: stuff. Um,

699
00:40:38,913 –> 00:40:39,913
kalen: I think

700
00:40:40,813 –> 00:40:45,693
kalen: you know. And And, and certainly, if you just ask for everyone’s opinion and do what

701
00:40:45,773 –> 00:40:47,613
kalen: everybody wants you to do, I think that’s the wrong

702
00:40:48,633 –> 00:40:49,633
kalen: approach, too,

703
00:40:51,693 –> 00:40:55,373
kalen: so I don’t know, man I, I, I don’t have any answers.

704
00:40:53,840 –> 00:40:58,160
brent_peterson: Well, let’s let’s talk about this right. I’ve seen more more now about

705
00:40:58,480 –> 00:41:00,640
brent_peterson: people saying this is splintering our community.

706
00:41:01,853 –> 00:41:03,133
kalen: Okay, right, right,

707
00:41:02,480 –> 00:41:05,600
brent_peterson: How many times have we heard that in the last ten years

708
00:41:06,233 –> 00:41:07,233
709
00:41:07,220 –> 00:41:08,220
710
00:41:07,393 –> 00:41:08,393
711
00:41:07,920 –> 00:41:09,360
brent_peterson: this is splintering our community?

712
00:41:10,413 –> 00:41:13,453
kalen: I don’t know. what are you? actually? What are you thinking? What? What other things

713
00:41:13,533 –> 00:41:16,893
kalen: are you thinking about that We’ described as splintering.

714
00:41:15,440 –> 00:41:19,200
brent_peterson: We’ve heard that over and over again. That, though community is breaking up,

715
00:41:19,360 –> 00:41:24,000
brent_peterson: and this is the end and I think, remember Um in twenty fourteen at Meetmch

716
00:41:24,220 –> 00:41:25,220
brent_peterson: into New York, Um,

717
00:41:26,320 –> 00:41:28,800
brent_peterson: curt, uh, Curt from Classi Lama,

718
00:41:27,373 –> 00:41:31,693
kalen: Oh, there’s no nucleus or there’s no center of gravity right,

719
00:41:30,880 –> 00:41:34,720
brent_peterson: Right, he had that big speech and Karen Baker did the same thing about how

720
00:41:34,880 –> 00:41:37,920
brent_peterson: our community’s falling apart And uh, you know, I

721
00:41:37,553 –> 00:41:38,553
722
00:41:38,000 –> 00:41:42,080
brent_peterson: think those are the times where Um where maybe it is splintering and and

723
00:41:42,240 –> 00:41:47,200
brent_peterson: having those people stand up and talk about it brings us together again.

724
00:41:49,100 –> 00:41:50,100
brent_peterson: So but is it

725
00:41:49,713 –> 00:41:50,713
726
00:41:50,160 –> 00:41:53,520
brent_peterson: splintering is? Yes, of course, it’s always splintering. People are going

727
00:41:53,680 –> 00:41:55,680
brent_peterson: off in their own directions and so

728
00:41:55,533 –> 00:41:56,813
kalen: it’s been. It’s

729
00:41:56,620 –> 00:41:57,620
brent_peterson: let me

730
00:41:56,973 –> 00:42:00,013
kalen: been in a process of continual splintering forw

731
00:42:01,840 –> 00:42:05,680
brent_peterson: know, But really like what? What is it that you’re saying? If it splintering

732
00:42:05,840 –> 00:42:07,280
brent_peterson: and where would you like it to go?

733
00:42:08,400 –> 00:42:09,600
brent_peterson: Because we just talked about

734
00:42:10,720 –> 00:42:15,840
brent_peterson: the the collective wants to be this community right. But the people like

735
00:42:16,000 –> 00:42:20,400
brent_peterson: William are pushing the boundaries to make something happen and we all agree

736
00:42:20,640 –> 00:42:25,280
brent_peterson: what he was doing is good, but other people are saying that we should. we

737
00:42:25,440 –> 00:42:28,720
brent_peterson: should split Ma Geno into small pieces. Some people

738
00:42:28,273 –> 00:42:29,273
kalen: right right

739
00:42:29,040 –> 00:42:33,520
brent_peterson: agree with that, some people don’t. That’s splintering the community, right,

740
00:42:33,393 –> 00:42:34,393
kalen: right, right,

741
00:42:33,760 –> 00:42:38,080
brent_peterson: everybody’. not going to have the exact same opinion about everything. So

742
00:42:37,713 –> 00:42:38,713
743
00:42:38,240 –> 00:42:40,320
brent_peterson: what does splintering the mean?

744
00:42:43,053 –> 00:42:44,333
kalen: Yeah, I think

745
00:42:45,773 –> 00:42:49,933
kalen: I go back to Larriville, because I’m Ca. I, That’s the other the closest analogue I

746
00:42:50,013 –> 00:42:56,173
kalen: have. You’ve got one leader, Taylor Otwell, who is incredible. He, every year he

747
00:42:56,333 –> 00:43:02,733
kalen: reads the entire code base line by line. That’s how committed this dut is. Everybody

748
00:43:03,213 –> 00:43:07,133
kalen: respects them as the like. A Lot of open source projects need to have a leader, right

749
00:43:07,293 –> 00:43:13,533
kalen: a B d f, ▁l and Um. Lius Torvalts. Right. You think of these people and

750
00:43:14,893 –> 00:43:19,693
kalen: Um, or or companies need a founder. You know, you know you have a founder that’s led

751
00:43:19,853 –> 00:43:27,373
kalen: the company from day one and I, I feel like that is is kind of an important thing. We

752
00:43:27,453 –> 00:43:32,173
kalen: don’t have that right now. Um, although I think maybe that’s Willm, That’s my

753
00:43:32,253 –> 00:43:34,653
kalen: campaign, William for B. D f. ▁l, but

754
00:43:37,313 –> 00:43:38,313
kalen: I don’t know. I mean

755
00:43:39,293 –> 00:43:44,253
kalen: yeah, I mean yes, Th. this would. This could splinter things. I guess

756
00:43:45,693 –> 00:43:47,693
kalen: um, I, I think organically.

757
00:43:48,813 –> 00:43:54,573
kalen: if if it was successful, it would start to pick up steam. And then maybe people that

758
00:43:54,733 –> 00:43:59,133
kalen: were not as interested in it would start to find a use case for it right.

759
00:44:01,133 –> 00:44:06,093
kalen: I mean, what about commerce and open source? Is that a splintering? is that A? Is

760
00:44:06,173 –> 00:44:07,533
kalen: that a splintering of the community?

761
00:44:08,653 –> 00:44:09,773
kalen: You know. I mean you. re.

762
00:44:09,600 –> 00:44:12,640
brent_peterson: I mean a commerce and open source is just a name. and that’s been around

763
00:44:12,500 –> 00:44:13,500
764
00:44:15,280 –> 00:44:16,880
brent_peterson: Enterprise came out in twenty ten

765
00:44:17,633 –> 00:44:18,633
766
00:44:18,560 –> 00:44:24,080
brent_peterson: and know the reality is thato has to make money so they have to pay. They

767
00:44:24,140 –> 00:44:25,140
brent_peterson: have to pay the bills,

768
00:44:25,933 –> 00:44:29,053
kalen: Yeah, money is good. Money’s money is important.

769
00:44:31,073 –> 00:44:32,073
770
00:44:32,513 –> 00:44:33,513
771
00:44:34,173 –> 00:44:39,133
kalen: I guess I. I think the point you raise is is interesting to me. Is like everybody’s

772
00:44:39,293 –> 00:44:41,693
kalen: always saying that everything is splintering the the community

773
00:44:43,053 –> 00:44:48,333
kalen: and the argument the association is making is listen, guys. We have been working for

774
00:44:48,413 –> 00:44:53,293
kalen: three years now to create this association to put some structure in place to foster

775
00:44:53,533 –> 00:44:59,213
kalen: dialogues and you guys are trying to blow it all up and you guys are saying Oh, we’re

776
00:44:59,293 –> 00:45:04,413
kalen: just going to do our own thing, And they’re saying we want you to work with us right

777
00:45:04,733 –> 00:45:10,013
kalen: as the association to communicate these things in a in a clear way to Adobe.

778
00:45:11,453 –> 00:45:18,173
kalen: And and I feel, and like I get that. But the same time it’s like

779
00:45:19,293 –> 00:45:22,013
kalen: there’s so much pent up frustration

780
00:45:23,453 –> 00:45:27,613
kalen: and ankt in the community And it’s just like

781
00:45:28,973 –> 00:45:35,133
kalen: it’s sort of spontaneously combusting. I feel like. In some ways you know

782
00:45:34,720 –> 00:45:35,840
brent_peterson: But doesn’t it feel like

783
00:45:36,940 –> 00:45:37,940
brent_peterson: that’s what happening

784
00:45:38,960 –> 00:45:40,160
brent_peterson: every time this happens.

785
00:45:42,173 –> 00:45:44,333
kalen: what do you mean? What do you

786
00:45:43,280 –> 00:45:46,880
brent_peterson: I mean it feels like the things are falling apart when this

787
00:45:46,513 –> 00:45:47,513
788
00:45:46,740 –> 00:45:47,740
789
00:45:48,400 –> 00:45:52,080
brent_peterson: When it felt like when Um Ebay bought Mago,

790
00:45:53,760 –> 00:45:59,760
brent_peterson: they had that ▁x Commerce conference and then the next year it wasn’t I to a

791
00:45:59,840 –> 00:46:04,800
brent_peterson: man conference. It was just imagine. like Magento came out of it completely

792
00:46:05,180 –> 00:46:06,180
brent_peterson: right. Like

793
00:46:05,873 –> 00:46:06,873
kalen: right? right, right, right,

794
00:46:06,560 –> 00:46:12,560
brent_peterson: for you know, Magenta was removed completely from the verbage in in those in

795
00:46:12,480 –> 00:46:14,320
brent_peterson: in the conversation. Um,

796
00:46:15,680 –> 00:46:19,200
brent_peterson: it felt like it. it. That was worse than it is now.

797
00:46:20,240 –> 00:46:22,560
brent_peterson: In some sense, because it felt

798
00:46:22,193 –> 00:46:23,193
kalen: right, right,

799
00:46:22,720 –> 00:46:28,000
brent_peterson: like it was getting sucked into some beheemth like Ebay, and and we’re never

800
00:46:27,940 –> 00:46:28,940
brent_peterson: going to get it back.

801
00:46:30,413 –> 00:46:36,973
kalen: I think that the corporate overlords, they keep trying to sort of absorb Mago. and

802
00:46:37,053 –> 00:46:39,613
kalen: then it just doesn’t just can’t happen.

803
00:46:41,133 –> 00:46:47,133
kalen: Like, like I said man, the community is rebellious. We’d like to do our own thing. We

804
00:46:47,213 –> 00:46:54,013
kalen: have our own hive mind. You know we’re going to keep fighting. You know, we’re go to

805
00:46:54,173 –> 00:46:58,333
kalen: keep. We’re going to keep forking. You know, it’s going to keep aing

806
00:46:59,120 –> 00:47:01,040
brent_peterson: Yep, uh, you know. think about um.

807
00:47:02,160 –> 00:47:06,240
brent_peterson: think about you. Think about these business leaders that are making these

808
00:47:06,480 –> 00:47:11,600
brent_peterson: decisions that don’t give uh, rats. Whatever about Magento. They bought

809
00:47:11,760 –> 00:47:14,960
brent_peterson: Magento in in the sense that they needed, and they wanted a commerce

810
00:47:15,200 –> 00:47:20,000
brent_peterson: platform to to go into the Um, broader Uh portfolio for a doobe,

811
00:47:20,433 –> 00:47:21,433
812
00:47:20,960 –> 00:47:24,640
brent_peterson: Uh, and what? they could have chose some other platform. That’s a Sass

813
00:47:24,800 –> 00:47:28,000
brent_peterson: platform. They could have chose something like Big commerce or whatever is

814
00:47:28,160 –> 00:47:33,680
brent_peterson: out there. They chose a Ma genento and it’s a Ph P platform. I don’t. I’m

815
00:47:33,840 –> 00:47:38,400
brent_peterson: just, I’m just putting out my guesses here. I’m guessing they didn’t think

816
00:47:38,640 –> 00:47:42,800
brent_peterson: about. Hey, this is Ph P. and none of the other products on a doob or Ph. H.

817
00:47:42,500 –> 00:47:43,500
818
00:47:44,080 –> 00:47:47,520
brent_peterson: Right they? they didn’t think of any that. I’m sure they looked at a bunch

819
00:47:47,460 –> 00:47:48,460
brent_peterson: of factors

820
00:47:48,673 –> 00:47:49,673
821
00:47:49,120 –> 00:47:53,840
brent_peterson: that made it F. from a business standpoint Make made it make sense.

822
00:47:55,840 –> 00:47:59,360
brent_peterson: And then the next thing after that you have a whole bunch of managers that

823
00:47:59,440 –> 00:48:01,360
brent_peterson: make decision. Ions that again,

824
00:48:02,480 –> 00:48:05,840
brent_peterson: don’t necessarily a line with where Magento was.

825
00:48:07,200 –> 00:48:10,400
brent_peterson: They just are looking at where they would like it to be,

826
00:48:11,520 –> 00:48:17,200
brent_peterson: not necessarily thinking about how it got there and how it’s going to get

827
00:48:17,440 –> 00:48:22,240
brent_peterson: maintained. in terms of hey, you know we have three hundred thousand people

828
00:48:22,400 –> 00:48:27,600
brent_peterson: that care about it. Um, are we going to upset them if we start doing this or

829
00:48:27,680 –> 00:48:30,800
brent_peterson: are we going? Are they going to feel shut out when we stop talking

830
00:48:30,740 –> 00:48:31,740
831
00:48:32,433 –> 00:48:33,433
832
00:48:34,273 –> 00:48:35,273
833
00:48:34,500 –> 00:48:35,500
834
00:48:34,893 –> 00:48:37,053
kalen: do you mean when we stoped talking altogether,

835
00:48:37,440 –> 00:48:41,360
brent_peterson: well, you know, if if we look at this as being a communications problem and

836
00:48:41,440 –> 00:48:44,640
brent_peterson: the communication is just there, not telling us what’s going to be happening

837
00:48:44,800 –> 00:48:49,840
brent_peterson: in the future with Magento, they are there really in. in a sense, not really

838
00:48:49,820 –> 00:48:50,820
brent_peterson: telling us

839
00:48:51,680 –> 00:48:56,400
brent_peterson: where they where where it’s going right. We don’t know necessarily where

840
00:48:56,180 –> 00:48:57,180
brent_peterson: it’s going.

841
00:48:57,153 –> 00:48:58,153
kalen: Mhm, Mhm,

842
00:48:57,940 –> 00:48:58,940
843
00:49:00,320 –> 00:49:04,960
brent_peterson: and that is, uh, a concern that the community has, because they would like

844
00:49:05,200 –> 00:49:07,440
brent_peterson: people would like to know where it’s going,

845
00:49:07,953 –> 00:49:08,953
846
00:49:08,480 –> 00:49:13,520
brent_peterson: and even more than I, I think few people want to be included in that they

847
00:49:13,600 –> 00:49:16,400
brent_peterson: want to feel that. if it’s a community you want to feel like you’re included

848
00:49:16,220 –> 00:49:17,220
brent_peterson: in the community

849
00:49:18,560 –> 00:49:22,640
brent_peterson: And if you don’t know what’s happening and the decisions are being made and

850
00:49:21,473 –> 00:49:22,473
kalen: yeah, Mhm,

851
00:49:23,120 –> 00:49:25,120
brent_peterson: you don’t even know what’s going to be happening

852
00:49:25,633 –> 00:49:26,633
853
00:49:26,080 –> 00:49:29,360
brent_peterson: that you feel incredibly left out of the community.

854
00:49:26,080 –> 00:49:29,360
brent_peterson: that you feel incredibly left out of the community.

855
00:49:33,213 –> 00:49:38,173
kalen: yeah, yeah, I think that’ I think that maybe it that may be the issue at hand.

856
00:49:40,173 –> 00:49:41,933
kalen: I don’t know. I just missed pen mark,

857
00:49:42,673 –> 00:49:43,673
kalen: you know,

858
00:49:43,360 –> 00:49:44,640
brent_peterson: Well, we can do our Ne

859
00:49:44,313 –> 00:49:45,313
kalen: I think.

860
00:49:44,880 –> 00:49:46,480
brent_peterson: next episode on shopware.

861
00:49:47,233 –> 00:49:48,233
862
00:49:48,813 –> 00:49:52,973
kalen: I don’t know the first thing about shopper, other than I think it’s the next Magento,

863
00:49:53,980 –> 00:49:54,980
864
00:49:54,273 –> 00:49:55,273
kalen: but um,

865
00:49:56,173 –> 00:49:59,533
kalen: they seem to have some strong grass roots growth.

866
00:50:00,100 –> 00:50:01,100
brent_peterson: as long as you get

867
00:50:00,353 –> 00:50:01,353
868
00:50:00,960 –> 00:50:03,920
brent_peterson: the Germans involved and then the Dutch, the Dutch, and

869
00:50:03,673 –> 00:50:04,673
kalen: you won’t.

870
00:50:04,000 –> 00:50:06,000
brent_peterson: the Germans, that’s all we need.

871
00:50:05,533 –> 00:50:10,333
kalen: That’s a P. That’s a powerhouse Con. Are the Dutch getting into shopware? Is that is

872
00:50:10,320 –> 00:50:13,120
brent_peterson: I’m sure they are. look at all the people on hoofah and

873
00:50:10,353 –> 00:50:11,353
kalen: that starting to?

874
00:50:14,160 –> 00:50:15,600
brent_peterson: going to be in shop. Definitely,

875
00:50:15,933 –> 00:50:18,573
kalen: Oh? are Oh, Are they going to be in shopware? Is that happening?

876
00:50:19,360 –> 00:50:21,600
brent_peterson: I’m just speculating making stuff up

877
00:50:22,553 –> 00:50:23,553
kalen: Okay? Yeah, no,

878
00:50:23,500 –> 00:50:24,500
brent_peterson: fake news.

879
00:50:23,693 –> 00:50:26,413
kalen: it’s uh, vague news, vague news.

880
00:50:27,453 –> 00:50:32,573
kalen: Yeah, no, it’s its. Yeah, it’s crazy, but yes, I do. I just miss Ben. That’s all I

881
00:50:32,733 –> 00:50:36,653
kalen: wanted to say. That’s really. That’s really all there is to say. At this point

882
00:50:37,280 –> 00:50:38,560
brent_peterson: Well, why don’t we have a

883
00:50:37,853 –> 00:50:40,013
kalen: we need you, Ben. come back to us.

884
00:50:40,540 –> 00:50:41,540
brent_peterson: let’s do?

885
00:50:40,893 –> 00:50:46,653
kalen: What have you done? You’ve left us orphaned like orphan children in our time of need

886
00:50:47,853 –> 00:50:49,133
kalen: and we need you back here.

887
00:50:48,080 –> 00:50:50,880
brent_peterson: Why don’t we do? Let’s do an interview with Ben.

888
00:50:52,033 –> 00:50:53,033
kalen: It’s a great idea.

889
00:50:54,753 –> 00:50:55,753
kalen: No, I, just

890
00:50:55,120 –> 00:50:58,800
brent_peterson: drink and die Coke. Is that of whole thing fe a di cokee going there?

891
00:50:59,293 –> 00:51:00,973
kalen: this is rum. but

892
00:51:01,120 –> 00:51:03,440
brent_peterson: Okay? that’s a big thing. A rum’s nice.

893
00:51:01,293 –> 00:51:06,173
kalen: uh yeah know do yeah know, because diyke. No diycoke isn’t very good for you, so

894
00:51:06,700 –> 00:51:07,700
brent_peterson: Okay, so you just

895
00:51:07,233 –> 00:51:08,233
896
00:51:07,840 –> 00:51:10,400
brent_peterson: do a die coke and rum. Leave out the died coke.

897
00:51:12,193 –> 00:51:13,193
kalen: more or less

898
00:51:13,553 –> 00:51:14,553
899
00:51:14,320 –> 00:51:16,880
brent_peterson: No ice. Just dump the rum in.

900
00:51:15,453 –> 00:51:19,933
kalen: I, actually, there’s actually ton e ice. I’m surprised you can’t hear all the ice in

901
00:51:20,013 –> 00:51:21,613
kalen: here. There’s quite a bit of ice.

902
00:51:20,560 –> 00:51:23,360
brent_peterson: No, your microphone is very good. pointed right at your mouth.

903
00:51:22,973 –> 00:51:24,893
kalen: Oh, that is good. Um.

904
00:51:26,333 –> 00:51:30,173
kalen: I, I would love to talk to Mann. I thought about that a lot. I just feel like

905
00:51:31,693 –> 00:51:35,853
kalen: he. prob. you know he probably can’t talk much of. See that it goes back to the same

906
00:51:36,013 –> 00:51:40,973
kalen: thing. I opened up our conversation with I. He probably can’t talk about much. you

907
00:51:41,053 –> 00:51:46,333
kalen: know, I’d imagine he probably doesn’t want to go rant about every internal problem

908
00:51:46,653 –> 00:51:49,853
kalen: There was. You know. He’s left Magento,

909
00:51:50,713 –> 00:51:51,713
kalen: so like

910
00:51:52,893 –> 00:51:58,413
kalen: I would love nothing more than to pick his brain for five hours straight, but I can’t

911
00:51:58,573 –> 00:52:03,693
kalen: imagine he wants to talk about that stuff publicly. you know, maybe privately, and

912
00:52:03,773 –> 00:52:06,653
kalen: then I’ll just record it on the download and publish it.

913
00:52:06,180 –> 00:52:07,180
brent_peterson: Yeah, Mhm.

914
00:52:06,740 –> 00:52:07,740
915
00:52:07,073 –> 00:52:08,073
kalen: You know.

916
00:52:07,440 –> 00:52:12,400
brent_peterson: you stick your your your of your phone on record in your pocket, so it’ll

917
00:52:12,340 –> 00:52:13,340
brent_peterson: just be her

918
00:52:14,020 –> 00:52:15,020
919
00:52:15,033 –> 00:52:16,033
920
00:52:16,220 –> 00:52:17,220
brent_peterson: You said

921
00:52:16,833 –> 00:52:17,833
kalen: that’s the ticket.

922
00:52:17,120 –> 00:52:21,440
brent_peterson: what I’ve heard of her. Oh, my gosh, I can’t believe that, Ben.

923
00:52:25,760 –> 00:52:26,960
brent_peterson: Really, that really happened.

924
00:52:28,240 –> 00:52:31,760
brent_peterson: See, there you go. I. I, we could do the interview ourselves and E, we

925
00:52:31,313 –> 00:52:32,313
926
00:52:31,740 –> 00:52:32,740
brent_peterson: could just pretend

927
00:52:33,613 –> 00:52:38,653
kalen: Yeah, that’s it there. That’s the other option. We could just do a mock interview.

928
00:52:38,893 –> 00:52:42,733
kalen: You, you be badd Mark, so be, you do an amazing muffle. The benmarks,

929
00:52:42,580 –> 00:52:43,580
930
00:52:42,973 –> 00:52:44,573
kalen: I will say, and

931
00:52:44,640 –> 00:52:46,880
brent_peterson: Absolutely lots of practice.

932
00:52:44,893 –> 00:52:48,493
kalen: um, and I’ll be me, You know. Yeah,

933
00:52:49,773 –> 00:52:52,973
kalen: um, and we could probably do a pretty, a pretty solid job.

934
00:52:54,500 –> 00:52:55,500
935
00:52:56,033 –> 00:52:57,033
936
00:52:58,413 –> 00:53:01,213
kalen: well, I think we’ve solved everything personally. I

937
00:53:01,260 –> 00:53:02,260
brent_peterson: yeah, we’ve burnt.

938
00:53:01,293 –> 00:53:02,333
kalen: mean, all they need to do,

939
00:53:03,433 –> 00:53:04,433
kalen: you know is

940
00:53:03,600 –> 00:53:06,080
brent_peterson: We’ve burned through fifty three minutes of solving.

941
00:53:03,600 –> 00:53:06,080
brent_peterson: We’ve burned through fifty three minutes of solving.

942
00:53:07,533 –> 00:53:10,173
kalen: all they need to do is hit play on this bad boy

943
00:53:11,293 –> 00:53:17,293
kalen: and listen to everything we say, Do everything we say and it’s all solved. You know.

944
00:53:17,473 –> 00:53:18,473
kalen: it’s done

945
00:53:17,660 –> 00:53:18,660
946
00:53:19,520 –> 00:53:22,400
brent_peterson: Um, Chantinus were sending it to right.

947
00:53:23,933 –> 00:53:28,733
kalen: a hundred percent. Yeah, we’re going to hand deliver this to him on his doorstep in a

948
00:53:28,893 –> 00:53:30,493
kalen: in a thumb in a thumb drive.

949
00:53:31,180 –> 00:53:32,180
brent_peterson: Yeah, yeah,

950
00:53:33,120 –> 00:53:37,360
brent_peterson: um, I heard that Laravell was named after a guy named Larry Vll.

951
00:53:39,380 –> 00:53:40,380
brent_peterson: Did you hear that

952
00:53:43,533 –> 00:53:45,293
kalen: I, I did not.

953
00:53:46,240 –> 00:53:48,720
brent_peterson: Uh v e I, ▁l,

954
00:53:50,300 –> 00:53:51,300
brent_peterson: and Um,

955
00:53:52,160 –> 00:53:56,800
brent_peterson: if it would, it would have been Larry Vile, like Vale, Colorado, otherwise,

956
00:53:56,500 –> 00:53:57,500
957
00:53:56,673 –> 00:53:57,673
958
00:53:57,120 –> 00:53:59,200
brent_peterson: now it’s Larry Vlle, and they just shortened it.

959
00:54:01,120 –> 00:54:02,480
brent_peterson: Did you hear that same rumor

960
00:54:04,080 –> 00:54:06,560
brent_peterson: like his neighbor’s name was Larry Vlle.

961
00:54:08,413 –> 00:54:10,653
kalen: please tell serious. Are you serious?

962
00:54:11,060 –> 00:54:12,060
963
00:54:14,013 –> 00:54:19,853
kalen: How did you get me? I was like the very last minute I was like, Oh my God, he’s

964
00:54:19,633 –> 00:54:20,633
965
00:54:20,960 –> 00:54:23,920
brent_peterson: Yeah, we made through this whole episode without any jokes.

966
00:54:23,433 –> 00:54:24,433
kalen: Oh God,

967
00:54:24,700 –> 00:54:25,700
brent_peterson: and Um,

968
00:54:24,973 –> 00:54:26,253
kalen: you are literally

969
00:54:27,313 –> 00:54:28,313
kalen: the most

970
00:54:28,953 –> 00:54:29,953
kalen: dead pan

971
00:54:31,453 –> 00:54:34,013
kalen: dad joker on the planet.

972
00:54:34,500 –> 00:54:35,500
brent_peterson: I’ve been told that,

973
00:54:37,293 –> 00:54:40,973
kalen: Just when I think I have you figured out, you throw me for a loop. you know,

974
00:54:40,820 –> 00:54:41,820
975
00:54:42,640 –> 00:54:47,280
brent_peterson: uh, speaking of, Uh, of well, so coup a couple of things as we close out.

976
00:54:47,600 –> 00:54:52,960
brent_peterson: Um, If if Willilm is our eelon musk, it is going to be infinitely less

977
00:54:53,200 –> 00:54:58,960
brent_peterson: expensive for him to shoot the Hofa theme into space than it was for Elo to

978
00:54:59,040 –> 00:55:01,440
brent_peterson: shoot his first tessin to space, right,

979
00:55:01,393 –> 00:55:02,393
980
00:55:03,213 –> 00:55:04,333
kalen: um, yes,

981
00:55:03,520 –> 00:55:05,920
brent_peterson: Um, he only has to strap on

982
00:55:06,960 –> 00:55:11,040
brent_peterson: a. You know you, I guess you would probably wanted to put it on a thumb

983
00:55:11,200 –> 00:55:14,800
brent_peterson: drive of some sort, the code and then shoot it up and we could even shoot

984
00:55:14,353 –> 00:55:15,353
985
00:55:14,960 –> 00:55:18,400
brent_peterson: it up on a small rocket. It doesn’t have to be a regular rocket.

986
00:55:18,893 –> 00:55:25,613
kalen: well, yes, that said, I’m pretty sure. any kind of rocket, even one that’s only big

987
00:55:25,853 –> 00:55:28,493
kalen: enough to carry a thumb drive is is not cheap.

988
00:55:29,140 –> 00:55:30,140
brent_peterson: Yeah, all right,

989
00:55:29,873 –> 00:55:30,873
kalen: you know,

990
00:55:30,720 –> 00:55:34,240
brent_peterson: so somebody’s going to have to fund that for Willm, so we could

991
00:55:34,113 –> 00:55:35,113
kalen: hundred percent.

992
00:55:34,320 –> 00:55:35,520
brent_peterson: do a go fun Me page

993
00:55:36,333 –> 00:55:37,453
kalen: we’ll get that linked up.

994
00:55:36,480 –> 00:55:40,960
brent_peterson: or we could just see if we could get it in Uh, on one of the Uh, one of Elon

995
00:55:41,120 –> 00:55:44,800
brent_peterson: Musk’s Um space, ▁x rockets. That would be cheaper

996
00:55:44,093 –> 00:55:49,373
kalen: Let’s do that. I’ll I’ll have a chat with him next time I see him down at the comedy

997
00:55:48,800 –> 00:55:52,400
brent_peterson: then I do. I do have a Tesla joke for you as we close it out.

998
00:55:49,513 –> 00:55:50,513
kalen: club here in Austin.

999
00:55:52,713 –> 00:55:53,713
kalen: Good lord,

1000
00:55:53,520 –> 00:55:54,560
brent_peterson: Uh, I just

1001
00:55:54,553 –> 00:55:55,553
kalen: somebody. somebody save me.

1002
00:55:54,880 –> 00:55:58,640
brent_peterson: figure out. I just figured out why Teslas are so expensive

1003
00:55:59,073 –> 00:56:00,073
1004
00:56:00,480 –> 00:56:01,680
brent_peterson: because they charge a lot.

1005
00:56:04,980 –> 00:56:05,980
brent_peterson: You’re welcome.

1006
00:56:05,693 –> 00:56:07,773
kalen: Oh God, thank you. Did you

1007
00:56:07,420 –> 00:56:08,420
1008
00:56:07,853 –> 00:56:09,613
kalen: do that as you come up with that one yourself.

1009
00:56:09,760 –> 00:56:12,640
brent_peterson: I don’t come up with any of my jokes myself. No,

1010
00:56:11,213 –> 00:56:14,973
kalen: You don’t come up with any of them, but you deliver them like an absolute champion.

1011
00:56:15,280 –> 00:56:18,400
brent_peterson: yeah, that’s the only that I don’t even know if that’s my talent.

1012
00:56:18,913 –> 00:56:19,913
1013
00:56:19,460 –> 00:56:20,460
brent_peterson: I don’t think it is.

1014
00:56:20,653 –> 00:56:23,053
kalen: I, no, I wouldn’t ▁quit your day job.

1015
00:56:22,160 –> 00:56:26,880
brent_peterson: I do come up with spontaneous jokes. Uh, and I do have to explain them. I

1016
00:56:26,960 –> 00:56:28,160
brent_peterson: think that’s the best part of it,

1017
00:56:30,893 –> 00:56:33,453
kalen: It is the best part, ladies and ja.

1018
00:56:32,240 –> 00:56:34,560
brent_peterson: my, my best joke, my best joke.

1019
00:56:34,113 –> 00:56:35,113
1020
00:56:34,800 –> 00:56:37,440
brent_peterson: When I’m running, I know we’re over now, but uh, I

1021
00:56:37,453 –> 00:56:39,053
kalen: no, no, no, we have all the time in the world

1022
00:56:37,520 –> 00:56:42,960
brent_peterson: do. I do my long runs. Um, and oftenims we outut with, I’m with the new Sam

1023
00:56:43,120 –> 00:56:45,920
brent_peterson: Muth, a new group of people and we’re doing twenty miles or something like

1024
00:56:45,540 –> 00:56:46,540
1025
00:56:46,193 –> 00:56:47,193
1026
00:56:47,520 –> 00:56:54,880
brent_peterson: I wait until Mile eighteen and I, My advice is always running is always

1027
00:56:55,600 –> 00:56:59,440
brent_peterson: running. Is is is, uh, ninety percent mental

1028
00:57:00,033 –> 00:57:01,033
1029
00:57:00,480 –> 00:57:05,120
brent_peterson: and the last fifteen percent is in your head, and I leave it at that and we

1030
00:57:05,280 –> 00:57:07,360
brent_peterson: just keep going. And then if they’re

1031
00:57:07,273 –> 00:57:08,273
kalen: I love it

1032
00:57:07,440 –> 00:57:12,480
brent_peterson: paying attention at all what I say, they will question my math, but a lot of

1033
00:57:07,440 –> 00:57:12,480
brent_peterson: paying attention at all what I say, they will question my math, but a lot of

1034
00:57:12,560 –> 00:57:15,520
brent_peterson: times they’re not, They’re not at the point where they could think straight,

1035
00:57:12,560 –> 00:57:15,520
brent_peterson: times they’re not, They’re not at the point where they could think straight,

1036
00:57:15,380 –> 00:57:16,380
1037
00:57:15,380 –> 00:57:16,380
1038
00:57:15,693 –> 00:57:17,933
kalen: they don’t. They don’t catch it, kind of like I didn’t

1039
00:57:17,580 –> 00:57:18,580
1040
00:57:18,093 –> 00:57:21,773
kalen: catch your my sequel joke. They just kind of go like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1041
00:57:21,553 –> 00:57:22,553
kalen: that’s good.

1042
00:57:21,940 –> 00:57:22,940
1043
00:57:22,333 –> 00:57:23,613
kalen: That’s good. Good inspiration.

1044
00:57:23,860 –> 00:57:24,860
1045
00:57:25,053 –> 00:57:29,453
kalen: I love it. I love it, ladies and gentlemen, Brant Peterson, All done here, were

1046
00:57:29,613 –> 00:57:30,973
kalen: wrapping it up over and out.

1047
00:57:31,540 –> 00:57:32,540